Nokia 6620

Wed Apr 2 19:25:50 CDT 2008

Jonathan, I'm sorry that you've misinterpreted what I wrote. Let me go over
your points and explain why there is no need for such a harsh response.

First, let me make clear that I do not intend to personally insult anyone
here. Email is sometimes a very difficult medium in which to express
emotion, and this often leads to perceived offense. I apologize for anything
in my message which could have been taken to be offensive in any way.

All I did was to point out that people can give their opinion about windows
mobile devices and share their personal experiences and opinions, but if you
really want to know the strengths of a windows Mobile device, I think, you
have to ask users who are happily using one, ask them if they chose it over
a Symbian phone and if so, why, and ask them why they choose to go with one
and continue upgrading to one. That is the sort of opinion you cannot get
from people who are using a Symbian phone or chose a Symbian phone over a
windows Mobile one.

I also needed to point out that opinions will vary and can be swayed by
personal preference for not just the product but the company they may be
affiliated with. By "affiliation", I did not mean only people who are
employed by a company but those who may also have friends in a company, who
are long-time happy customers of a company and have made it a personal
mission to promote that company's products. Now, as far as I know, Freedom
Scientific doesn't consider Code Factory as a competitor, and we do have
many customers who are freedom Scientific employees, most of whom are using
WM devices, and even write to us for support using their FS email address,
so I don't really understand why you took offense and thought I was
insulting you personally.

Or was it the mention of my PACMate QX and BX that made you think it was a
slight against you? If so, I'm sorry, but let me say now that this is my
personal opinion as a user of both WM devices and the PACMate, and I will
say it even if it was not in reference to WM devices that Code Factory
supports. It had nothing to do with you, Jonathan. In my personal
experience, and I'm sorry if the personal nature of my experience wasn't
made clear enough, I have had to reset my PM when I was using it more often
than my WM devices now. This could be due to the QX and BX running WM2003,
which causes the hardware (not just PM but even mainstream PDAs) to reset
and lose data when the battery runs down completely. But really, that's all
that comment was about... A personal opinion just like your opinion about WM
devices not performing satisfactorily for you.

You also say that subscribing to our lists to get opinion from users who are
not swayed by loyalty to a product or affiliation with a company that
support other hardware and operating systems is nonsense. I should clarify
my statement further then by saying that if you subscribe to our lists, and
ask about wm devices, as many have done before, you will find that the
responses focus mainly on the features and functionality of WM devices and
have little to do with how well our products work with the phone. If you
want to know how MSP and mss work with the devices, then you can also ask
there, and you'll find more specific answers pertaining to our products.
Isaac can also subscribe to the mailing lists for users of other Windows
Mobile screen readers if he wants, by no means am I telling him not to. But
as we have more users with more supported devices on our lists, and yes,
since I'm working for Code Factory, I suggested our lists for a source of
information, but I didn't say, and certainly didn't mean, that our lists
should be the only source of information. Did I tell him to unsubscribe from
this list and not to listen to what people here say? Most definitely not,
and I think what people here say is very valuable indeed.

As for your user experience with a WM device, again, I do not see why you
are taking offense, but I apologize that you have. Let me tell you though
that just because you chose to switch back to a Symbian phone doesn't mean
you're the only blind person I know who has done that. Nor does it mean that
my assessment was due to any lack of user experience on your part. If that
was my intention, then I should have replied to your message, not Isaac's. I
also did not say, or intend to say, that your difficulty with audio not
being routed to your Bluetooth headset as an example of someone not
bothering to learn to use the phone, so again, I do not see why you think I
was referring to you or your experience with a windows Mobile device.

My own experience, with many users of WM devices, is that the OS has a very
steep learning curve for many people. Despite Microsoft's claims to the
contrary, many people find WM not to be very much like Windows and not very
intuitive to use. They find the methods for performing functions odd, and
often give up on the OS after a few days. Those who, however, keep using the
system for a few weeks often find that the system works very well. What I
was intending to suggest to Isaac is that he should be careful to get the
good as well as the bad, that is, the users who have decided to go on,
despite the learning curve, as well as those who have decided not to use the
system. Coming to your situation, as I recall, you used your phone for quite
a while and didn't give up on it because it was too steep of a curve but
because of the problems you found in it. As with the rest of my message,
there was no connection between this comment and your use of a WM device at
all.

Now, I must address what you said about CF not resolving issues with a wm
phone that you tried because this is information that I cannot leave
floating around and possibly being quoted. The Bluetooth problem you
mentioned is, as I told you when you wrote to us about it, with the firmware
for that hardware. It has nothing to do with MSS and not something that CF
should be blamed for. It's the same problem seen on devices like the Samsung
phones. We have written to device manufacturers about this for assistance
but help doesn't come as quickly as we hope it would. We are also working on
finding a workaround to this OEM-specific, not CF-specific, issue. I also
remember talking to you so that we can find a relevant registry key to
attempt to resolve it, as you mentioned in your own message. Please don't
think that we considered your problems with the HTC S630 unimportant and did
not attend to your report of the problem. Also, please do not think that we
thought it was user error or failure on your part to figure out the solution
to that, because otherwise, we could've simply told you what to do to
correct a user error. There was no error whatever in that case except on the
part of the device manufacturer.

As for your example of the alarm, I also don't call that anything due to
user error, and again, I did not use that as an example in my last message
so I hope you're not thinking I am using that against you or to insult you
or anyone else. But I also hope you're not saying this was an unresolved MSS
problem because fixing lockups and instability is given high priority by
Code Factory during development and beta testing cycles, and that sort of
problem would not have been overlooked. I cannot comment further on this one
as I do not know the circumstances or factors that could have caused the
lockup but if anyone
else is having this problem with their WM device, then please contact CF
about it with more details.

As for battery issues, you may remember that I posted on this list also my
own comparison of the two operating systems, and I did mention that this was
a common opinion held against WM devices but that whether it is a problem
for users depends on the user.

Lastly, I need to point out that the HTC S630 phone you had a Bluetooth
problem with, and I'm not sure about the alarm problem if that was with the
same phone, was not yet on our list of officially supported devices when you
purchased it and installed MSS on it. Therefore, it was only natural that
there were problems you found with your use of that device which we were not
yet aware of.

Again, let me apologize that I have offended you or anyone on the list. That
was certainly not my intention as explained above. But I want people asking
about WM devices to be pointed in the right direction where they can get
informed user feedback, rather than get it from just one list or only from
people
who chose not to go for a WM device and therefore, will not have a favorable
opinion about this operating system to begin with. Also, keep in mind that
Code Factory also supports Symbian phones and I use such phones as well (in
fact, I was a Symbian phone user years before MSP and MSS were released) so
I am also not telling people to stay away from Symbian phones, nor am I
saying that they are better. It's down to user opinion, and the goal of my
last
message was to tell Isaac that there are other sources for opinion on WM
devices, that he has to find out the positive user feedback and experience
with
this OS, and why it is important to get it straight from actual users, those
who stuck with a WM phone.

I hope that clarifies any offense you found in my last message.

________________________________________
Roselle R. Ambubuyog
Code factory, S.L.
Moving accessibility forward!
Mobile: +63 916 940-0007
E-mail: roselle.ambubuyog at codefactory.es
Website: http://www.codefactory.es

-----Original Message-----
From: blindphones-bounces at mosenexplosion.com
[mailto:blindphones-bounces at mosenexplosion.com] On Behalf Of Jonathan Mosen
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 6:24 AM
To: 'The Accessible Phones Discussion List'
Subject: RE: Nokia 6620

Hi Roselle, I certainly hope your employer is observing your unprofessional
responses on this list. While of course you are free to share your
experiences, personal insults are not called for and I will remove you from
the list if that's all your capable of.

You write,

>We have many happy WM users on our product lists for MSP and MSS, and they
can give you an opinion about the device and >operating system without being
swayed by their preference for any screen reader product or affiliation with
companies that support other platforms and hardware.

This is, of course, nonsense.  The fact that they are users of Mobile Speak
means that they have a preference for it, unless of course they are unhappy
users wishing to migrate. That of course is fine. People should research
these issues and ask for a range of perspectives. Mine is but one, and I was
very clear about that.

You then write

>Anyway, if you want to subscribe to any of our users lists and get more
informed opinion from actual users who really bothered to learn how to use a
WM device...

Again, this is a childish, unprofessional insult, and given that you sent it
from the Code Factory address, is frankly an absolute disgrace.

I have been an "actual user" as you put it, of two such devices. I will tell
the list the facts, which is that you yourself were unable to resolve the
issue of speech on this particular device not being able to be heard on any
Bluetooth headset device. This was after considerable effort including
registry tweaks, for which I was, and am, grateful. So how does my
dissatisfaction with this limitation, as someone with a hearing impairment
like Isaac has, constitute my inability to learn how to use the device?

How does the fact that I could set an alarm, leave the phone on the bedside
table, and find the alarm would not go off because the phone had locked up
in the night spontaneously, constitute my not learning how to use the
device?

How does the fact that when WiFi was enabled, I would get very very poor
battery life, a problem documented on many forums, constitute me not
learning how to use the device?

I would suggest that you could have shared your positive experiences of
Windows Mobile phones without resorting to such unprofessional conduct. As
it is, you've probably done more in your one message to turn people off Code
Factory than any Symbian user ever could.

So please, if you can't behave yourself like a grown adult, do not post
here.

Jonathan
-----Original Message-----
From: blindphones-bounces at mosenexplosion.com
[mailto:blindphones-bounces at mosenexplosion.com] On Behalf Of Roselle
Ambubuyog
Sent: Thursday, 3 April 2008 11:03 a.m.
To: 'The Accessible Phones Discussion List'
Subject: RE: Nokia 6620

Hello Isaac. I think it would be better for you to also subscribe to mailing
lists with blind people actually using and discussing Windows Mobile-based
devices to get a better idea. We have many happy WM users on our product
lists for MSP and MSS, and they can give you an opinion about the device and
operating system without being swayed by their preference for any screen
reader product or affiliation with companies that support other platforms
and hardware. Unfortunately, I've seen a number of blind people put in
little effort in figuring out a WM device and say it doesn't perform as well
as Symbian phones, when I find that I find no such problems with WM
Smartphones and Pocket PC phones that have specs not as good as the wm
devices they have claimed to have tried and judged not to work for them...
And so do other blind people I have spoken to. In fact, I find my WM devices
more stable than my PACMate QX and BX, and they're definitely easier to sell
when you want to upgrade to a new phone compared to a PACMate. And most of
those I know who have a windows Mobile-powered device also chose to upgrade
to another WM device rather than switch to a Symbian phone, which is, I
find, the less common practice. Anyway, if you want to subscribe to any of
our users lists and get more informed opinion from actual users who really
bothered to learn how to use a WM device, go to
http://www.codefactory.es/en/list.asp?id=88
________________________________________
Roselle R. Ambubuyog
Code factory, S.L.
Moving accessibility forward!
Mobile: +63 916 940-0007
E-mail: roselle.ambubuyog at codefactory.es
Website: http://www.codefactory.es

-----Original Message-----
From: blindphones-bounces at mosenexplosion.com
[mailto:blindphones-bounces at mosenexplosion.com] On Behalf Of isaac obie
Sent: Thursday, April 03, 2008 4:49 AM
To: The Accessible Phones Discussion List
Subject: Re: Nokia 6620

Well, you know this is the first time I've really dealt with a phone of this

nature. I've seen them, but that's it! I've never turned them on or off. 
What about the I-Mate SP5M? Will that be a better phone all around? Just 
want to know before I invest in one. Thanks.
Isaac
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen Giggar" <sgiggar at sbcglobal.net>
To: "The Accessible Phones Discussion List" <blindphones at mosenexplosion.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2008 12:14 PM
Subject: RE: Nokia 6620

> No you do not need to continue holding down the power button until you 
> hear the start up sound. You only need to hold down the power button for 
> about 2 seconds.
>
> as far as why the phone takes some time to come up, well first of all, 
> every phone takes a while to get going. In this case, the phone has to 
> load the operating system and then all the drivers it need and then any 
> additional software packages like the screen reader.
>
>
> lastly: this is a very old phone.
>
>
> Produced on a Nokia N73 smart phone using a Symbian based screen reader.
> Signed by: Stephen Giggar
> sgiggar at sbcglobal.net
> Skype: dr-phone.
>
> - original message -
> Subject: Nokia 6620
> From: "isaac obie" <iobie at gis.net>
> Date: 02/04/2008 2:52 PM
>
> Hi all:
> Why does it take so long for the phone to come on once you press the 
> button? It acts like a windows 98 computer, slow as molasses climbing a 
> hill in the middle of winter. I can't tell if it's on or off at times. 
> that button seems to be worn out. You have to press it so hard for so 
> long. I don't think I am going to like this phone much. Are they all 
> stubborn like this?
> Thanks
> Isaac
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